Film Simulation bracketing

Discussion in 'Coffee with Rico Pfirstinger, Fuji X-Pert' started by Lightmancer, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Here's a question.

    Does anyone use this feature, and has found a way to tailor the simulations when selected?

    Here's what I mean. I usually shoot in "Acros" or occasionally "Chrome", jpg Fine+raw. Thus if I shoot a subject that cries out for colour, and I have used mono (or vice versa) I have a second bite of the cherry with the raw file.

    In theory the film simulation bracketing should, for my purposes, be a god-send. But it isn't... I can't find a way to change the default jpg settings to my personal taste when in bracket mode (which is a drive mode) as I can with the raw converter in post. Ideally I'd like to set my film sims to my personal preferences and use those for bracketing, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that. It would potentially save me HUGE amounts of time in post.

    Am I missing something...?
     
  2. TNcasual

    TNcasual FujiXspot Regular

    45
    Feb 1, 2017
    I was wondering the same thing. I would like to set up a film simulation with a few tweaks and then use it as one of the bracketing choices. I haven't found how to do this, yet. I may be missing something, though.
     
  3. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    If you are, I am...

    Anyone managed it? If it can't be done it rather negates the benefit of the functionality (and I'll put in a request).
     
  4. Luke

    Luke FujiXspot Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    854
    Jan 31, 2013
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I may get crucified for this one. But I think the film simulations are what they are. Fuji engineers with extensive experience have optimized them. I think they're generous to allow you to tweak them at all in-camera.

    To me, it's a bit like going into a fine dining restaurant and placing your order and then giving a long list of ingredients that you would like the chef to leave out and ask him to replace them with something else.

    :hide:
     
  5. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Ah yes, I see your point, Luke, but to take your restaurant example I think it's more a case of "Excellent choice sir, and how exactly would you like your steak done?" The settings I'm referring to are the ones you and I were discussing the other day. They are the ones that bring the simulations to life; highlight, shadow, noise, etc. I can adjust them individually, and in camera when processing raw, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that I can set them up and combine them when bracketing. I was fiddling with this last night and the difference between a "straight" Acros rendition and a "tweaked" one is quite significant, to my eye. The settings are stored, because I have them in other custom settings, so why not allow them to be used? If not, it's not the end of the world - I just carry on as I do already - but it would be nice...
     
  6. Luke

    Luke FujiXspot Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    854
    Jan 31, 2013
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I understand your wishes and to some extent I think it would be cool if you could save multiple different jpeg settings for bracketing.

    But at that point (and frankly any point where one adjusts the settings) they should just quit calling it a film simulation.

    If one likes using the Velvia setting as a STARTING point, but they prefer the everything set at +3, the resulting photo is not really Velvia at all. The same goes for Acros. You can prefer the look you're getting with your settings, but you're merely using their Acros "film simulation" as a starting point for your own processing. As soon as you change those settings, it's no longer Acros as the Fuji engineers envisioned it....at least as I read the description that you linked to the other day.

    I know it's just semantics, and I appreciate WHY you want multiple jpeg settings available to bracket.

    If I can use your food prep analogy, it's not like asking the gentleman how he would like his steak prepared......that would be the raw setting....cook it how you like. It would be like ordering the seared ahi tuna, but telling them to cook it until it's well done. :eek-42:
     
  7. Luke

    Luke FujiXspot Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    854
    Jan 31, 2013
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I don't use the Fuji supplied software, but I wonder if what you seek could be easily accomplished with a batch processing function. I don't think they'll ever get it to happen in-camera. But as my mother always says, "it doesn't hurt to ask".
     
  8. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Hi Luke,

    I think you're right - we are in the realm of semantics and pretzeled metaphor. Let me bend another. In the days of film I could buy myself a roll of Acros, expose it, then pull or push it in development, dodge or burn it when printing, use a harder or softer grade of paper, etc. The end result is still Acros, with all the Acros goodness, but I have tailored the output to my liking. Where's the difference...?
     
  9. TNcasual

    TNcasual FujiXspot Regular

    45
    Feb 1, 2017
    You can still do the same thing today. With infinite possibilities in PP.

    However, one of the reasons I wanted to try a Fuji was the jpeg output. I would like to be able to create my tailored jpegs and reduce the amount of PP. Being able to create jpeg settings in camera and bracket multiple ones would be a great advantage.
     
  10. Luke

    Luke FujiXspot Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    854
    Jan 31, 2013
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I think you're getting closer to how I feel about it with this explanation. When developed straight up, the results will be Fuji Acros, straight up. Anything beyond that is really post-processing....even though you may have started from the Acros recipe.

    Maybe more to the point, when using the film simulation bracketing, are you getting straight film simulations or are you getting each of the sims with your preferred jpeg settings applied?

    I think for how YOU shoot, Fine + raw in Acros with your preferred setting is the best for YOU. You are nearly always in mono, and for those times you want color, you can aplly the setting and use the in-camera developer. I understand you want to save that step, but I just don't see it happening.
     
  11. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Hi both.

    This is an interesting debate because it's forcing me to think about and articulate clearly what I'm trying to get to.

    I want to spend minimum time in post. The closer I can get to SOOC exactly to my tastes, the better. And Luke, you are spot-on (dammit ;) ) I see in mono, and Acros is heaven on a stick for me, but for the times that I do want a particular shot in colour, I still have the raw safety net. Tweaking jpgs is a poor substitute.

    What forced this line of thought, by the way, is that on the X100F you can't have raw and the digital teleconverter at the same time; it's jpg-only. Thus if I want to use it, the only way I can have my colour cake and eat it is to use film simulation bracketing.

    I hate compromise... Ah well...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Luke

    Luke FujiXspot Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    854
    Jan 31, 2013
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    keep on keepin' on
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. drd1135

    drd1135 FujiXspot Regular

    152
    Oct 3, 2013
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    That's what Ketchup is for.

    My question is how much about the Veliva setting is beyond my control even if i had access to the standard tweaks like sharpness, saturation, etc. In other words, what control would I need to turn Provia into Velvia. On the Pen F, the menus gives you a lot of control over the mix of colors and such.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  14. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Hi Steve, not sure I understand the question - Fuji already offers Provia and Velvia simulations (as well as Astia and others) - there is no need to start from one to get to the other; the benefit of Fuji having manufactured film in the first place.
     
  15. KillRamsey

    KillRamsey Super Moderator

    Feb 15, 2013
    Hood River, OR
    Kyle
    Not that anyone cares, but my 2 cents... I'm with Bill as far as wishing this were an option. And I’m with Luke in thinking it won’t ever be, but perhaps for a different reason.


    Why I’d Like It: Bill is right. The colorway “film simulation” is just a starting point, and shadow/highlight settings really can affect the outcome in meaningful ways. I’d like even MORE control, frankly, in that I’d like to be able to check the film sims from a list – as few as 2, and many as 4 – and have those generate under Film Sim Bracket mode. I often only want 2, not 3, and that matters a little because of speed, which will come up again in a second. I picture a menu tree where you check the film sims you want, and go to the right of each to tweak the usual RAW settings. Perhaps more to the point, Fuji’s really sold a LOT of cameras precisely because of the jpgs out of camera, so comparing what Fuji allows (/should further maybe allow) to other models of camera doesn’t really sway me. Fujis aren’t LIKE other cameras much in that regard… they’re capable of cranking out incredibly well processed jpgs before you ever eject that SD card. This would just increase how much of that good work you could have the camera do for you, ahead of time. That’s a good thing.


    Why Luke Is Probably Right: I’ve always felt like it was processing speed and menu complication working against me, here. Spitting out 3x jpgs every click, now, with the fastest SD card available and with the camera doing everything except the colorway the same already has a noticeable lag that I frequently can’t live with. I take the picture, and my EVF is hijacked for 2 seconds while the camera shows me how hard it’s working… “look – here’s the 3 jpgs I’m creating for you! Here they come … almost done …” Meanwhile I’m missing the next shot or two because I can’t see anything. So making the camera go through what surely would be even more processing could only hurt. And then the general desire not to have menu trees that are 14 layers deep is probably a deterrent as well.


    My compromise is that Fuji should let me ask for just 2 colorways if I want to, and as many as 4 if I am willing to pay the time lag penalty.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Appreciate Appreciate x 1
  16. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
  17. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    Film Simulation Bracketing is rather useless: It only works in JPEG mode. No RAWs.

    It's intended for JPEG-only shooters, so they get 3 different versions of a shot.

    FINE+RAW shooters can simply add different film simulation version later in the built-in RAW converter.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    I assume that the bracketing is still based on ancient firmware from Fuji's compact cameras. It's weird that bracketing blocks the camera as long as data is saved to the card.
     
  19. TNcasual

    TNcasual FujiXspot Regular

    45
    Feb 1, 2017
    :rolleyes-24:
    Some people like to shoot jpeg. Getting the image out of the camera that you want is not wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    It's not useless, but it could be considerably more useful, with just a bit of development (pun intended). As a fine+raw shooter I do exactly what you say - but I have better things to do with my time...