How do we convince Fuji to improve auto bracketing?

Discussion in 'Coffee with Rico Pfirstinger, Fuji X-Pert' started by dmward, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. dmward

    dmward FujiXspot Regular

    52
    Nov 12, 2013
    I do a lot of architectural photography and have found the auto bracketing capabilities on the 5DIII useful. I can pick the number of frames in the bracket and the EV separation between the frames. This combined with Lightroom's ability to process floating point 32 bit TIFF files in the develop module is a great resource.

    I love taking my XE2 or XT1 with me when walking around but it leaves so a void for capturing high dynamic range image sets.

    I have a sense, given the limited capabilities in the firmware at the moment that it is something that could be updated.

    How can I convince Fuji to do it?
     
  2. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Solving for X

    718
    Jul 28, 2013
    I do HDR for my urbex stuff and I'm totally with you. This has been mentioned many times and I'm flabbergasted Fuji hasn't addressed it because it's such an easy thing.
     
  3. CaptZoom

    CaptZoom FujiXspot Regular

    166
    Mar 22, 2013
    Why not shoot in manual mode and adjust the shutter according to the bracket sequence you need?
     
  4. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Solving for X

    718
    Jul 28, 2013
    That's what we do do... do do... well it's a crappy way to do it, lol. If you're doing HDR, anything you do to adjust the camera, especially in unstable urbex setups, risks unaligning the shots or causing vibration or whatever.

    Other camera systems allow adjustable bracketing. Why shouldn't Fuji?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. bilzmale

    bilzmale FujiXspot Veteran

    353
    Feb 3, 2013
    Perth, Western Australia
    Bill
    A big bugbear for me too.
     
  6. dmward

    dmward FujiXspot Regular

    52
    Nov 12, 2013
    With Canon 5DIII on a tripod with an STE lens it can be done by spinning the shutter speed wheel but there is a risk of misalignment.

    What I like best about the way Canon does it it the ability to do hand held brackets. That is specifically what I would like to do with my XE2 and XT1. Software if very good at deghosting. And at F8, ISO 400 shutter speeds are sufficiently fast to make it possible, with a git of care, to hold the camera still enough.

    For full blown architectural shoot I'll be using Canon and STE. I would love to be able to do the walk about shooting with X system. But need better bracketing capabilities.
     
  7. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    Shoot 3 consecutive ± 1 EV brackets at 0 EV, -3 EV and +3 EV exposure correction. This results in a series of 9 images with a range of ± 4 EV.
     
  8. dmward

    dmward FujiXspot Regular

    52
    Nov 12, 2013
    That's possible using the EV comp wheel but can't be done handheld. There are lots of ways to get a bracket on a tripod. Its doing it handheld that is important. I bought my X kit because I want the compactness and unobtrusiveness when doing city walking shoots and traveling. If I have to carry a tripod I can take my 5DIII, along with TSE lenses and do a proper architectural shoot.

    What is needed is an easy to setup, already there, way to get at least ± 3 EV.

    For my purposes, what is in the cameras now, with the range extended to ± 3 EV would be great.
     
  9. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Solving for X

    718
    Jul 28, 2013
    If you actually read, you'll see that for some of us that touching the camera can disturb the setup. Furthermore, I shoot with a wireless remote and have set the camera up at times where I can't reach the controls. I've done what you're saying and even talked about it -- but it is not sufficient.

    Really, it is SUCH a trivial thing to do software-wise, there really isn't any credible argument against expanding brackets. The lowly LX7 is better for HDR brackets than any Fuji camera is.

    Let's go Fuji -- no more LAME excuses!
     
  10. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    I don't think doing 9 EV handheld is a good idea, as some shutter speeds would definitely be too long für handheld. So this discussion is pretty theoretical. Even when using 1/4000s at the upper end, the shutter speed at the lower end would be as slow as 1/15s. Practically, HDR is mostly done in situations with strong contrasts, often at night or at dusk, trying to use the lowest ISO possible (200 in APS-C cameras) for quality reasons.

    So there's little chance that a ± 4 EV photographer could ever use 1/4000s, plus it's pretty sloppy to take 9 handheld shots and then try to merge and overlap them in a computer. So using a tripod is very much a must for serious multi-bracketing that goes beyond 3 frames.

    The number of people who are actually affected by this limitation is hence rather small and not necessarily identical to the small number of people who keep complaining about it in forums for at least the past 5 years (maybe longer, but that's when I entered the Fuji universe and became aware of it). If you are serious about HDR and want 9 shots with ± 4 EV, doing 3 quick brackets at 0, -3 and + 3 EV is an easy way to get what you need, as serious HDR shooters will most certainly use a tripod (or at least some kind of stable camera footing) and possibly even ND filters in order to smoothen water or clouds. I certainly used one for my HDR demonstration sample below. In fact, the more pressing limitation here is the 30s on the lower end, as bracketing can't expand into bulb territory.

    7003074417_dd5dc0aa8c_c.
    DSCF1271_HDR by ricopress, on Flickr
     
  11. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Solving for X

    718
    Jul 28, 2013
    Since some folks are getting it and apparently feel it necessary to argue that we DON'T need it -- which is senseless anyway and part of what's wrong with forums like this -- I'll provide a concrete example of why readjusting the camera just doesn't cut it.

    I've never licensed an HDR shot from Fuji to anyone yet -- but from my Nikon's and Panasonic's I have. In fact, just last month licensed a shot to a marking and branding company startup in Switzerland called Allaleen who will be marking lines of watches by (perhaps among others) Molarity Watch. They will be marking an "industrial" line and paid to use one of my industrial shots -- from the LX7 and it's an HDR shot. This is the one:

    8538548142_b8ce6b53dd_b.
    Panasonic LX7 Test: Ladles Under Maintenance by Entropic Remnants, on Flickr

    Now, that was done very quickly, using handheld brackets aligned after the fact. In order to get the necessary dynamic range with the Fuji, I'd have to adjust the controls with the camera to my face or take it down. Either way, keeping the alignment of the shot would be difficult to hold within the alignment limits of the software, or the scene might change.

    In fact, I consider the LX7 to have been the only reason I got this shot: I set exposure brackets with a twist of a dial, and grabbed a series of shots very quickly. The crane was starting to move again as I took the camera down from my face. This shot would have been missed if I'd had to fool with the camera.

    There are tons of reason with todays techniques why Fuji's bracketing is just plain dumb considering what the competition offers. That's the end of the argument for me. Those of you who seem to think there's something to be said about why Fuji doesn't need to do this can continue on -- but you're being silly

    Again: FUJI GET WITH IT.

    So conversely: the LX7 in this case, with a simple software feature that is COMMON, was a money maker. With the Fuji, I'd have missed the shot under extreme and fleeting industrial conditions.
     
  12. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    I don't think that Fujifilm ever apologized, lamely or not, for their current bracketing implementation. They obviously do not care and think it's not an issue. Otherwise, they would have fixed it 5 years ago, years before the X series.

    Fuji hasn't been willing to include the 24h time format in their cameras, which is much more trivial, with complaints going back about a decade, maybe longer.

    I actually have a long list of trivial things that could be improved. I don't expect Fuji to take care of every item that is on it, and it doesn't give me sleepless nights or an ulcer. I simply find the best workaround possible, hope for the best and expect the worst.
     
  13. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    I am not aware of anybody saying that Fuji should NOT expand bracketing in this or any other forum. Are you seeing ghosts, or is your urge to get personal and insulting so strong that you have to direct it against people that don't even exist? ;)
     
  14. Luke

    Luke FujiXspot Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    865
    Jan 31, 2013
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I can't think of too many cameras I have used that HAVEN'T allowed a user customizable bracketing. Shame on you Fuji.
     
  15. dmward

    dmward FujiXspot Regular

    52
    Nov 12, 2013
    My point in this discussion is that Fuji X kit is ideal for fast and mobile photography. There are times when I want to, while being fast and mobile, make a bracket that includes 3 frames +3EV, 0EV, -3EV with the camera in Aperture Priority and a low ISO setting. Its a fast and simple way to collect the resource files for a 32 bit floating point file that can be created and used in Lightroom. Sunny day with deep shadows and interesting sky is the most common situation. This is done handheld. If I want to carry a tripod then I can also carry a DSLR.

    I've used this technique quite successfully with my 5DIII. Now that I have Fuji X kit, I much prefer to carry it for walking shoots, and travel. Loosing the 3EV bracketing capability is a disappointment.

    Its just something that makes the camera better for what I think is its design intent.
     
  16. CaptZoom

    CaptZoom FujiXspot Regular

    166
    Mar 22, 2013
    I get it. Now.
    I honestly didn't think people did HDR stuff handheld. I assumed it's always done via stable set up. I don't do HDR and I don't have anything against it either (though I don't find extreme tone mapping appealing).
    Hopefully Fuji will address your concerns.
    -- -- -- --

    Rico,
    That's a shame about the 24H clock. I use it exclusively for all my digital time keeping devices. It's bizarre Fuji won't give the user this option. But I guess that's one of Fuji's quirks. And coming from Leicaland (where odd corporate quirks are the norm), Fuji's is a relatively minor one.
     
  17. dmward

    dmward FujiXspot Regular

    52
    Nov 12, 2013
    I rarely do HDR with tone mapping. I do it to capture a wide dynamic range that can be assembled into a 32 bit floating point file that can be processed in Lightroom 5.3 and newer in the develop module. The exposure slider has a 20EV range with a 32 bit file, and the other files also have a doubled range.

    Shooting the three frame bracket means holding the shutter button down with the camera in burst mode and the bracket set. I use Aperture Priority because I don't want changing aperture values to mess with DoF. Usually ISO is low to make sure that the shutter can handle the upper bracket.

    It works well for all those situations where one normally has to pick between getting the details in the highlights or keeping some detail in the shadows.
     
  18. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    How many of the forum complainers have actually written to Fuji about this issue? One would assume that Fuji must have received thousands of letters and emails over the years. And yet, when I talk to product planners about such issues, they basically tell me that with the exception of me and a few others they haven't heard back from customers about it. So as far as Fuji is concerned, it's a non-issue. It appears like folks love to bitch about minor issues like this one in forums (wasting their time and the time of others, as there are virtually hundreds of threads about better bracketing options in various photo forums all around the globe) but can't be bothered to give clear written feedback to their local Fuji office.

    It's simple: If 1000s of letters had been written years ago, the issue would have been fixed years ago.

    As long as this doesn't change, Fuji won't address anything. Why would they? They simply prioritize new features based on customer feedback and reviews. Is bracketing a major "minus" in current reviews of the X-E2 and X-T1? It certainly isn't.

    Here's what DPR found on the con side of the X-E2:

    Now guess what, if anything, is on top of Fuji's list to improve?

    Yep.
     
  19. romi.gilles

    romi.gilles FujiXspot Top Veteran

    654
    May 17, 2013
    back in Crooklyn
    rico, where on the site do you recommend sending in our feedback? support and contact center? i don't really have a local office.

    i've emailed that way in the past, twice, and have never received a response.


    (Sent from another Galaxy via Tapatalk.)
     
  20. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    I am not Fuji or their spokesperson, so I am the wrong person to ask such questions. You'd normally contact your regional office in order to find out who to send technical feedback to. In Germany, we have an email address, a mailing address and a free service phone line.

    If you do not receive a reply to your feedback, a nicely worded letter to the office of the company's CEO often does the job, informing him that regional office XY didn't bother to reply to your concerns and asking him who to contact.