Tethering

Discussion in 'Coffee with Rico Pfirstinger, Fuji X-Pert' started by ImageNation, May 13, 2014.

  1. ImageNation

    ImageNation FujiXspot Rookie

    18
    May 1, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rob
    Rico,

    Apart from having some awesome writing skills (I bought your Kindle for the XE1 and have the XE2 one on order) - you make RTFM a pleasure, and similarly awsome photographic skills...... (First flatter them.......)

    You also have "Visibility" that Fuji obviously values.

    So, I would like to make my pitch for proper tethering, as a inherent feature in Wireless capable X camera's.

    Despite wishful thinking (some of it my own) The tablet as a serious working platform for some level of post processing workflow is a couple of OS generations away. IOS and Android and the SOCs out there now can get there, but there are so many OS level utilities and facilities that need to be ironed out I predict at least two more generations. Ipad for lightroom, today is like Mac and Photoshop for color corrections/pre-press in 1990, it will happen, it will be great, but a lot of folks need solutions until it does......

    Which brings me to tethering. Since mirrorless cameras are by default using "Live View" to operate, it should be almost a no-brainer to allow a Lightroom (or whichever too/platforml you prefer) to tether their camera by USB/WiFi/Bluetooth to their Thin notebook or tablet (again depending on preference). Obviously this is not important for some genres (street photography with a Fuji 100sin one hand, and a 11" Macbook Air in the other), but in my own areas of interest (product shots) and plenty of others (Studio Work, some event work it could be a boon. One of the more interesting proof of concepts I was involved with was with a wedding photographer who (in addition to a regular crew) tried out a free standing grew using iphones and an ipad (which was swapped around fo Macbook air as part of test. The workflow was perhaps analagous to TV live coverage. Their was a picture editor with thin laptop/tablet located away from dance floor, but high up, and two shooter with iphones out there taking pictures. all three communicated by wireless headsets, so the picture editor managed the photographers to get a live documentary like coverage of the event.

    As a proof of concept delta analysis (what does not yet exist to make this work) it was very interesting in that we could do it on platforms from Apple iPhoto and icloud, through Aperture/ICloud, through Lightroom/Wifi/Dropbox with a couple of $10 Cloud storage plugins (we tried with Drop Box/ OneDrive/ and raw Amazon S3)/ The most insightful observations came from the picture editor shooting the breeze with the roving photographers. They were being fed shoot lists from someone who was following the actual event, bt still had the freedom to be spontaneous and grab candid shots, which really livened up the documentary format.

    This is not a work flow for everyone, but with wireless realtime tethering it opens up many interesting possibilities for using automation to help coordinate two photographers covering an even, plus it gives the added advantage of real time backup.


    I am sure plenty of people are working on this type of idea (nothing new under the sun) but REAL TIME TETHERING is essential and it should be easier to get it better and slicker that Canon/Nikon.

    To throw out an idea based upon a mashup using FileMaker interacting with a bunch of scripts and lightroom........ It opens up business possibilities for individual photographers to work cooperatively and can automate plenty of post processing (time being money.....)

    Lastly ..... yes my selling syntax and grammar are appalling, so are my teeth, I was brought up in the UK!!
     
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  2. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    You might be able to see a solution demonstrated at Photokina.
     
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  3. ImageNation

    ImageNation FujiXspot Rookie

    18
    May 1, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rob
    A Fuji Firmware/App update, or are they opening up and API and there will be a third party solution?

    There is (I think) a self defeating attempts by many vendors to keep their P&S cameras relevant by making it easy to post photo's to whatever service is the cool lifestyle hangout de-jour.

    What we need is something quite different. A workable solution to move images without SD Sneaker Net. The law of unintended consequences will cause new solutions to follow new functionality.

    Fuji certainly certainly appears committed to build brand loyalty by delivering funtional updates (what a concepts, I think Canon did it once to prolong the life of the 7D, otherwise we usually see bugfixes).

    I hope Fuji continues on its current path and does not try a diversify into a (shrinking) low-end market, at some point Canon will wake up, and then Fuji will be fighting a losing battle against a brand leader in a shrinking market......a recipe for losing a lot of money.

    Now if Fuji keeps to its current niche delivering superlative products, and customer support I think it has a strong future. Having seen this industry from inside, outside below and above for 30 years or so, I truly believe that Leica has seriously lost its way, It is becoming a niche of a niche servicing well healed users. As long as it makes money it is at least serving its shareholders. But that allows Fuji to neatly slip into Leica's vacated niche as a supplier of superlative photographic tools for serious photographers.

    I love the way my X-E1 or X-E2 and lens looks like a camera. The design is subtle and totally focused on being a camera. It does not draw attention to itself (unless you meet another photographer), it does no look like a "Pro Camera" and yet it allows you to produce amazing images (well it allows skilled individuals, not necessarily dilettantes line myself.).

    Enough of my paen to good design and expressing opinions for one day..........

    Roll On Photokina........
     
  4. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    I expect an API. Hopefully not just Windows but also Mac, maybe via Capture One.
     
  5. ImageNation

    ImageNation FujiXspot Rookie

    18
    May 1, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rob
    I understand the attractiveness of capture one, but why not Lightroom as well. The amount, complexity and extensibility of Lightroom Extensions is quite breathtaking.......

    The Mac second possibility, is troubling, because of the prevalence of Mac use in the photo/creative communities........

    It certainly sounds very exciting, One of the things that has always concerned me about M43 was its total inability to tether and interact until recently...... It appeared for a long time that only Canon, Hasselblad and to some extent Nikon got it, with workflow.........

    On a completely different track and with absolutely no connection.

    As I understand it a full frame 35mmm lens has a circle of illumination of 34.5 - 36mm and an Aps-c lens has one of 23.75-25mm........

    Since the major investment for any camera company is building out a line of lenses, I wonder why Fuji does not look at upsizing the APS-C imager t a square format (based upon the longest side of the APS-C rectangle. Or perhaps too many tears lusting after Square Format camera's has affected my judgement. I was talking to some friends in the Movie production field, who has played with an XPro and they reckoned that if and when Fuji ups its game in video (or licenses technology to someone else) it could have a profound effect. With the world moving to 4K HD (driven mostly by the needs of screen manufacturers to generate new business) and who knows where after that you will start to have issues with pixel density on imagers and the limitations of the Bayer or low pass filter. The math is pretty mind bending, but 8K HD could be hitting the human eye's limits to discern detail.

    Personally, I am happy that Fuji is holding back on Video, it was a huge thing for Canon, but it may not have translated into greatly increased revenue. It certainly delayed the introduction of other features (Wireless/GPS) at the core of their systems. The two new Wide angle zooms they introduced today point to the fact that someone has realized that some balls have been dropped. A 10-18/3.5-5.6 IS STM Zoom built to kit lens standards at $299 MSRP is notable in my mind. I just hope Fuji does not chase after the rapidly declining low end of the market. The X-M1 is great value as a studio/tripod camera, and the XC lenses are a boon for folks on a budget, but I thought the internal business case for the development of the X System was profit and brand loyalty rather than volume and Market share.....
     
  6. landshark

    landshark Fujiman

    208
    Feb 1, 2013
    SoCal
    Two points:
    Point 1:Canon's success with video has been at a cost to still camera development and new releases, we have all been waiting a long time for the 30plus megapixel full frame camera.
    Point 2: I shoot a lot of medium format, at one point the only way to shoot medium format was to be tethered, as the backs got better there ability to write to cards became in some ways faster than tethering and more like shooting film, but unfortunately every client we work with grew up on tethered cameras, they never worked with film. For products you might be right and find tethering helpful with shooting people, I think it is annoying. Other than the subject no one is now comfortable shooting untethered
    Every clients just stares at the screen and they all seem to forget that we are shooting people not trained robots. Many actually talk to the screen, many times they talk about the subject like they are not there, they now want endless alternatives, even though the best image has already been recorded.
    I find it very frustrating
     
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  7. ImageNation

    ImageNation FujiXspot Rookie

    18
    May 1, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rob
    I agree with you on point one, although I think that Canon in general has a tendency to prefer lower pixel density vs increased noise. If you remember how bad the APS-C Imager in the EOS 50(15MB) was against the 10MB APS-C imager in the EOS-40. Although it is difficult to accurately follow Canons imager development (without good inside sources), it is my understanding that the 5DIII imager is a development of the 5DII/ 5D/ EOS-40. The EOS-50 Imager became a blin alley, and all the APS-C imagers used today trace back to what started in the 7D.

    We all expect Moores law to apply to everything that is tech related, and it clearly does not, (is it really a law?)

    I think if you look at imager development,going back to Vacuum Tubes..... Development comes in fits and starts, because it is dependant in so many other factors. You cave packaging, micro lens array design, in Solid Dtate you have materials science and the improvement of sensitivity to light of semiconductors, then you have post processing. What we all call RAW is still very highly processed data. The ability to pull data of a sensor and format it into raw is a function of processor/ASIC design, bus width, clock speed, memory performance, firmware.software design and optimization yada yada yada.

    I remember when te Kodak DCS420 was state of the Art, and talking to some folks who had a pci card that cost $11K (more than a DCS Body) with multiple DSPs that improved effective resolution 3x but implementing de-noising algorithms in hardware. There was a point when these board were being sold at almost 1:2 with the DCS-420 bodies. so when you added in a Gen 2 Power PC Mac with 512MB RAM and storage etc and Pshop etc you were pushng $35K. My iphone camera produces cleaner sharper less noisy pictures today, and we are talking maybe 18-years.

    Having said all of that, I think ultimatly we will all benefit from what was learned in Canon's Video detour.


    Point 2 - Tethering
    I agree with you as to why tethering is a terrible idea and also disagree simply because I have seen the opposite be true. Photography even and especially commercial photography is driven by personal preference at a number of levels, and when we talk about personal preference almost everything can be valid. I think we need the option. A niche system, does not mean it should have niche uses, or rather with the manifest advantages of the X system (optics, Imager/Firmware/Color, and Camera ergonomics) it can be used to significant advantage in many areas.

    Now to make a highly controversial point...... I sometimes question the "utility" of "medium format - Digital Imaging". The only reason I do is that I recall the transition from Drum Scanners to Solid Scate Scanners. I was involved with Meredith Publishing at the time at many different levels, both Editors, art directorsm\, and the HQ production guys, who actually (being in Des Moines) took the time to do a lot of testing as to the actual different of using a 6x6 chrome drum scanned for 150lpi output SWAP Glossy on a Vacuum tube drum scanner (and this was still when there were plenty of folks who argued that for the best possible results only 4x5 chromes should be used) and then a 35mm chrome scanned on an Agfa Horizon for 150LPI output SWOP Glossy. They actually made plates and did print runs under optimum production conditions (i.e. Someone checking press registration every 500 outputs, good humidity and fountain control.........

    So I got to sit in when this VP from DesMoines passed around a bunch of samples to some Editors Art folks etc etc, and we were talking about some pretty heavy hitter in the ladies home and fashion world on the mid the nineties so they were commissioning millions of dollars in outside photography and of course generally spec'ing format. Beause the folks I was working with would make roughly the same whichever way things went, I was involved in working out ways to combne bjective and sunjective results to allow best decision to be made. S we traced the samples but labled the various film format sacnning and seperation systems randomly.

    After an hour of wine chees and bs, the winners were picked, and the results 60% preferred 6x6 drum scanned vs 20% 35mm Solid State Scanned........ then we showed the actual results, they were about evenly distributed across all methods and systems. Afterwards at dinner a mildly naiive me asked a couple of the Meredith big shots what the outcome would be........ The answer taught me a lot in all of my subsequent career and even personal use. Essentially, it was this.

    In the overall cost of producing a market leading magazine (even) where creativity and production values/quality were paramount the cost of commissioning photography was fairly irrelevant to the bottom line and always would be so, because you are paying for the creativity of the photographer and or art director, so from that standpoint, it made no difference if the images were shot on a Kodak Instamatic or a Sinar P 8x10 - (it might be meaning full to the photographers p&l, but never the commissioning magazine. The production costs were just about relevant at that point and as time passed it would become more relevant. The whole point of the exercise was politics. Individual titles would control their commissioning budgets and full artistic control, but how that image was turned into a magazine cover was a corporate choice and would follow slightly behind the tech curve for saftey an good sense.

    Based upon that, and the fact that actual production imagers are all still considerably less in size/info density than a 6x6 negative, is there a real objective reason for shooting medium format? (There are certainly valid subjective ones).

    I think the fact that fact that the real world difference in MANY (but not all) types of photography is so small if not in fact reversed, is why the Fuji X system has become so popular. You dont actually need a 5D3 and L lens for a lot of things, and an Fuji Setup is much lighter yada yada On the other hand I doubt that many sports photographers will switch soon (but they will eventually, be it to Fuji or another smaller system). This has happened at least twice before in the last 50 or 60 years. The move from Cut sheet film to roll film. And the move from roll film to 35mm. Remember when a Nikon F or Canon F1 was still called a miniture camera?


    OK enough thought for one afternoon
     
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  8. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Interesting and thought provoking stuff - thank you.
     
  9. ImageNation

    ImageNation FujiXspot Rookie

    18
    May 1, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rob
    We aim too........ and somtimes please!!

     
  10. landshark

    landshark Fujiman

    208
    Feb 1, 2013
    SoCal
    I am sorry but I will have to disagree about format, and this is coming from someone who has been shooting professionally for almost 40 years and still working, so I have used every small, medium and large format piece of camera equipment made, including one of the worst cameras ever to shoot with, the Kodak DCS. I still have one in my office as a paperweight. Most clients rarely dictate or even ask for one camera over another, format is the request, resolution is the request. While I will agree that more times than not, in the professional world if the client really knew what they want, we could all shoot smaller resolution cameras. I have no great affection for medium format as a digital platform. With film two of my all time favorite cameras to shoot with were medium format, there was no more reliable and incredibly sharp workhorse ever made for a professional photographer than the Mamiya RZ67 and the more delicate but more fun and creative tool, was the Fuji 680.
    Anyway I am getting off topic, my clients were not happy when we shoot with the Canon IDx, not enough resolution, we now have switched to using a Nikon 800 for those more kinetic shoots and a Hasselblad with a Leaf, Hassy or Phase back for everything else. With the latest Phase back we may be leaving the Nikon home more often, because it shoots so fast, good high ISO abilities and shoots a huge file.
    The reason the clients do not want a smaller format is because no matter who the photographer is, they always want to play with the art in ways it was not intended to be used. I cannot tell you how many times a client decides that they no longer want everybody in the group shot or they find that the only headshot that works for them is the one where the subject is even small in the frame for a full length. So what they are doing is taking just 100th of the frame and wanting to do a bus-side or a bus shelter poster or a billboard. As I said earlier I would love to shoot with a smaller camera system, only problem is they cannot do what is required.

    Now back to tethering, my main point is it takes away from the natural flow of shooting with people, everybody stops looking or interacting with the subject, the image is always behind, it stops working, it overloads the system, it is less stable, the only advantage for me is my tech can see if something is going wrong.
    Otherwise I think it is an annoying way to work at best.
     
  11. ImageNation

    ImageNation FujiXspot Rookie

    18
    May 1, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rob
    Disagreements spark creative juices (but sometimes too much juice douses the spark).

    The DCS-420 was heavy and annoying, but it was (IIRC the first Quality Digital Camera to break the $10K mark...... Going downwards. IT was the last generation of Kodak's Nikon, Hassy or Graphlok only existence, because I recall seeing the first DCS with a Canon EOS 1 not soon after with the next gen Kodak CCD.

    We are obviously approaching this from different directions I am more the tech type who also enjoys creating images........ but I think the key point is that any system worth its salt should allow the user the ability to work the way that works best for them.

    My daughter after doing a semester of photography in college, decided that she wanted to find out how things worked in coal powered days, and of course asked yours truly. After trying to get away with explaining about the little men inside the camera who painted in negative....... (No dad, everyone knows that was only in Polaroids, that is why the cameras were so big!) We moved on to depth of field. She was not quite getting it, until I had a brain waive, showed her the X-E2 with focus peaking switched on and "walked" the center of focus around!