Why Are the X-E2 Dials So Rigid???? (And Other Complaints)

Discussion in 'Fuji X-Mount Cameras' started by Miserere, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    Hi Everyone,

    My first post here at FujiXspot. I'm a long-time Pentax DSLR user, most recently shooting with a Samsung NX10 + 30mm f/2 for my street photography. For a few years I wrote and edited Enticing the Light, where I championed the Fuji X100 from day 1. Never actually got one because I'm a 50mm-e FoV guy, so was very happy when Fuji released the X-Pro1, though I didn't make the jump to the X system until last week when I purchased an X-E2 and some lenses (and have since started selling off my Pentax gear).

    I've not had much time to shoot with the X-E2 yet, but it looks like I might end up liking it ;) My biggest gripes so far are:

    • Very rigid shutter and EV comp dials, which I can't easily turn with one finger while holding the camera in shooting mode. I suspect I have to (sarcastically) thank for this all those people who complained that they were too loose on the X-E1. So yeah, THANKS! :p I really hope they loosen up a bit with time because right now I can't use EV comp or change shutter speed on the fly with the camera to my eye. Do I suffer from WFS (Weak Finger Syndrome)?
    • Focus peaking is not clear enough, even set to HIGH. Fuji need to either add colour options to the edge shimmering or make it bolder. Ideally, both! Because right now I see no difference between the low and high settings.
    • Why can I not set the focus area to its smallest size when in Manual Focus? I always use the smallest size, and being able to AF via the AF-L button when in Manual Focus mode is fantastic, but I want to be able to choose the focus area size. And why doesn't Face-Detect work in MF either?
    • Why isn't Face-Detect an AF MODE option together with MULTI and AREA? It's buried in a menu when, if made an AF MODE option, it could be set quickly with one of the custom Fn buttons if, like me, you have one assigned to AF MODE. I understand that it defaults to either MULTI or AREA when it doesn't find a face, but that could be solved by allowing Face-Detect to be selected together with either MULTI or AREA.
    • When ISO is set to a custom Fn button, you need to click it, use the rear wheel to change it, then click the button again. Why not bring the ISO menu up while the Fn button is kept pressed, change it with the wheel, then it's set when you depress the Fn button? This is how many other cameras handle ISO (and EV Comp) changing.
    • There's no quick way to change AF points in AREA AF mode. I'd like the option to set the control pad to control AF area placement without the need to press the AF button to access this option. I move the AF area a lot on the cameras that allow continuous control over it and am having a hard time using the camera in the way it's set up. It wouldn't be an issue for landscape or more contemplative styles of photography, but for my street photography I do find it an issue. Currently I'm using the center point and AF+recomposing, which is not my favourite way of doing things.
    • When selecting Spot metering (or PHOTOMETRY, as Fuji calls it) I would like to option to choose the spot following the AF area. If I have the AF area off-center, chances are good that's where my subject is, and that's what I'll want to base my exposure on, not whatever happens to be in the center of the frame. I seem to remember Olympus has this, and I believe other brands do too.
    • ISO only goes to 6400 in RAW. Really??? Have been scratching my head about this ever since the X-Pro1. Fuji, please let me shoot at least ISO 25,600 in RAW. Please, I beg you. Pleeeeeease.
    • Buttons feel like cheap empty plastic. I've used quite a few mirrorless cameras (by Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung and Ricoh) and the X-E2 has the cheapest feeling buttons of them all, by far. Are the X-Pro1 and X-E2 buttons holding up OK?

    When I've used it a bit more I will post the stuff I do like about it, which is a lot! Don't think I'm hating on the camera, it's that I've used a lot of them in my quest for the perfect mirrorless and so I have very clear ideas of what I want and what I expect a great mirrorless to be and work like. It's not coincidence that it's taken me 2 years to commit to a mirrorless system (for a while it looked like it would be Samsung, but they've flaked out on their promises of better bodies and more primes).

    Luckily, most of my gripes can be addressed in firmware, and the fact that Fuji have been constantly updating and improving their cameras through firmware weighed heavily on my decision to jump into the system. It makes sense to all of us that this is how things should be done, but most (all?) other camera companies don't make many firmware improvements to older cameras or listen that much to what their users have to say. That's one of the reasons I'm leaving Pentax; after 7 years of asking them (through official channels, not just on my website) to implement a lower shutter speed limit in AUTO ISO, it still isn't there. Yes, I know the X-E2 has a user-defined limit, and that is also one of the reasons I chose it!

    If I've overlooked some setting or feature that fixes any of my gripes, please let me know! I'm still reading through the manual, though I have looked for specific answers to my gripes and found none. Here's to a FW update making me a happy man :D
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. SansPeurVJ

    SansPeurVJ FujiXspot Rookie

    15
    Dec 9, 2013
    Yeah, I also have a stiff Exposure Compensation dial. Bizarre.
     
  3. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Solving for X

    718
    Jul 28, 2013
    Those of us who carry cameras to shoot events where we are wearing cameras on sling straps at our sides, or constantly putting them in and out of tight cases, requested stiffer dials.

    I'm a fan of it. I've given up on several cameras by different manufacturers because of excessively loose mode dials, etc. I find the Fuji dials perfect. Easy enough to move (I mean, you don't need to be a muscle man for crying out loud) and VERY difficult to accidentally change.

    You should read about how cameras shoot RAW from sensors with onboard processing. The highest native ISO of this sensor if I recall is either 1600 or 3200 and it is processed externally to provide higher ISO's. If you want ISO 25,600 peformance, it's the same thing to boost the exposure form the 14 bit RAW file. That's all it takes -- you can already simply underexpose 2 stops and then push in post to do exactly the same thing, not kidding.

    One thing we agree on though: focus peaking needs work to be more visible. It bugs me but I don't do much manual focus work so it's not a big bug, lol. I'd also like to dedicate the entire 4-way pad to immediate focus control. Right on. Ditto mo simple way to control face detection with a Fn button -- heck, the X-M1 can do that.

    By the way, you can end an ISO adjustment cycle just by 1/2 pressing shutter. Same for the Q-menu. You don't need to hit the button again.

    I am really happy with this camera, except for routine gripes which don't add up to much for me. It's about as close to "ideal" for me as anything I've owned so far. We'll see what tomorrow brings, lol.

    Some of your questions though I don't understand... like why face detection doesn't work in manual focus? Face detection is an automatic focus function is why. I can't see any serious use for your desire for that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Ambler

    Ambler FujiXspot Regular

    51
    Nov 13, 2013
    Cumbria, UK
    Peter
    Dials are not too stiff IMO. In fact I have accidently moved the exp. compensation dial a couple of times. I do have large hands though.
     
  5. jloden

    jloden FujiXspot Top Veteran

    708
    Mar 9, 2013
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Jay
    Yes on all three - I was just going to comment the same thing: I use a half-shutter press to clear the ISO menu rather than pressing the Fn button again.

    And I totally agree on focus peaking and I also wish there was a way to make the directional pad always do focus points. It's sometimes handy having quick access to macro mode, flash, or WB but it's *always* helpful having quick access to AF. I'd be willing to sacrifice putting the others in a Q menu or something in exchange for the directional pad just moving the AF points immediately.

    There's hope yet for the focus peaking according to Rico - we'll see! :smile:
     
  6. BBW

    BBW Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Feb 8, 2013
    NW corner of CT
    BB
    While I can't comment on your gripes, Miserere - I can say "Longtime no see and welcome to FujiXspot"! Glad to see you here and I hope you'll hang around and share some of those X-E2 pictures of yours once you get going.:drinks:
     
  7. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    Aha! So it was you! :p

    I continue to find it difficult to change them on purpose. I wonder if there's a way to loosen them up...maybe with a hammer...

    I fully understand that, John, I would simply like the camera to do it for me, as do all the other cameras in the World. Also, when underexposing, the EVF will be darker (I have it set to show actual exposure), making it harder to compose. If moving in and out of low light you're not going to be diving into the menu to change that setting on the EVF each time you need to underexpose.

    Yeah, that's true for any menu on the X-E2, but I still find it cumbersome. An even better solution would be to allow the rear control wheel to control ISO, then all 3 shooting parameters would be at your fingertips. Not that you'd be able to change shutter speed with a finger tip because of the rigid dial, but still :D

    Well, why is there Auto Focus in Manual Focus? But if there's going to be that, why not go all in and allow other AF functionality?
     
  8. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    No need to give any buttons up, this is how it works, for example, on Pentax DSLRs: You can choose in a menu the default behaviour of the 4-way control buttons; one option has the buttons giving you access to Flash, WB, etc, and when you hit the OK button you go into AF Area mode and the arrow buttons move it; the kicker is that you don't need to press OK again, and even if you half-press the shutter release (or take a photo), the arrow buttons continue to move the AF area. Clicking the OK button takes you back to having the 4 arrow buttons controlling Flash, WB, etc. The other option you can choose is the reverse, so that the default use of the 4-way control buttons is to move the AF area, and you need to press OK to make the buttons access Flash, WB, etc. Easy firmware fix!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    Hey BB! I didn't know you lived here too ;)

    Good to see you, and I hope my little one gives me some time to go street shooting with the X-E2, which I am really looking forward to, so I can post some pictures.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. jloden

    jloden FujiXspot Top Veteran

    708
    Mar 9, 2013
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Jay
    That would be pretty cool. I basically never use the wheel on the back, being able to assign that to ISO would make all three exposure triangle sides available at your fingertips.

    I'm a big fan of quick access to those 3 settings, and my Nikon and Panasonic cameras are set up so that all three are adjustable with my right hand.
     
  11. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    Pentax allows it too (you can assign ISO to one of the two control wheels or the back wheel while pressing an ISO button); and I'm pretty sure I remember the Ricoh GRX allows changing ISO with the rear toggle wheely thing.

    Anyway, let's hope these requests make their way magically to Fuji HQ and we see them in a new firmware, and then... :whoo:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    Pressing the ISO button (assigned to any Fn button), you can already use the command dial to change ISO settings.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    The issue was that you click on the Fn button to bring up the ISO menu, and then you change the ISO, and then you click it again (or half press the shutter release) to close the ISO menu. What I would like to see is being able to press the top Fn button, then change the ISO by spinning the wheel while the Fn button is pressed. Lifting my finger then closes the ISO menu.

    And since you're reading, Rico, can you also tell Fuji that it's not cool to have the ISO menu taking up so much screen space? I change ISO on the fly as I'm shooting, sometimes while I'm shooting, and I would like to be able to continue seeing the scene while changing ISO. At lease have an option for discrete ISO changing; I don't need to see all the ISO options available, I know they go from 200 to 6400 when shooting RAW, so I only need to see the current ISO I'm on.

    Am I complaining too much? :D
     
  14. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    Well, the X100 is not showing all ISO options (leaving out Auto-ISO configuration), and people keep complaining about that. :)

    Personally, I'd not accept not being able to reconfigure Auto-ISO parameters in the ISO menu that appears when I press the Fn button. I do this all the time.

    I already don't like that there's no access to Auto-ISO configuration from the OVF of the X100S and expect this to be the same in the X-Pro1 after the 19DEC firmware update.
     
  15. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    Oh, definitely! Auto-ISO needs to be there between 6400 and 200, quickly accessible when needed (which is almost all the time for me).
     
  16. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    Well, then you need the menu as it's now.
     
  17. Miserere

    Miserere FujiXspot Regular

    32
    Dec 9, 2013
    Boston, MA
    Yes. And no! :D What I was complaining about was a) How the menu is accessed (I don't think it should be a menu, just like aperture and shutter speed aren't menus); and b) How large the menu is on the screen such that it blocks my view of the scene I'm shooting.

    We're not saying completely different things, Rico :)
     
  18. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    We are, because I need a menu to re-configure my Auto-ISO settings and I am not pleased to give up this option or only access it in the normal shooting menu.

    This is actually a quite serious discussion in the light of rumors that future cameras could sport an ISO dial. Since a hardware dial can't store several different software settings, there's a real potential of losing real-world functionality to please the retro guys who want to have everything manual. Well, guess what, manual isn't always better. That's why mixing consoles in sound studios turned virtual (after a phase with remote controlled sliders, which was/is quite expensive). Since I don't expect cameras to get electric motors to automatically change hardware dials according to different custom user settings, this is something to think about.
     
  19. jloden

    jloden FujiXspot Top Veteran

    708
    Mar 9, 2013
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Jay
    Interesting thoughts Rico. I don't think I'd mind a physical ISO wheel really, as long as it has an A/Auto mode available, and I can still configure the Auto-ISO options in a menu.

    For what Miserere is saying, I think what he's suggesting is just that the wheel/Fn button toggle iso up and down without taking up the entire screen space. For example, on my Nikons I can control ISO by hitting the ISO button, then using one of the two control wheels to either toggle Auto ISO on/off, and/or move the ISO value up and down. When I adjust the ISO it just moves the value without displaying a menu of options. On my GH3, hitting the ISO button does bring up a menu, but it's side to side instead of top to bottom. That way it doesn't eat up all the screen real estate like it does on the X-E1/X-E2.

    Not something that's been particularly noticeable for me because I shoot Auto-ISO a lot, but I can see the sense to leaving the screen real estate as clear as possible.
     
  20. flysurfer

    flysurfer X-Pert

    Feb 1, 2013
    Nuremberg
    Rico Pfirstinger
    But you can't store multiple different options in shooting profiles. At least not if Fuji has their way, because they never think about these things. It always takes months of pressing and convincing (with lot of it getting lost in translation) to get stuff fixed that should never have been introduced that way in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 1