X100 series with zoom lens??

Discussion in 'Fuji X100, X100S, and X100T' started by stefig, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. stefig

    stefig New to FujiXspot

    1
    Feb 8, 2013
    I loved the X100 since the moment I saw the camera. I love the retro design, I love the manual A and S. I loved the viewfinder.
    The only thing which was bothering me (besides the issues with the slow AF and some other) was the fixed 23mm lens.
    I know why they chose a fixed lens, I also agree that 23mm is the perfect one (at least for my taste), but don't you want to have some range?
    I look at X100x as a camera to use for longer period of time and not replace it with every update. It would be nice if it has something like x10/20 lens - even if it doesn't go to 100+mm, but just to 70mm
    I don't think it is impossible to make X100 with 24-70mm or 17-50mm lens and still keep the small size and perfect optics.
    We already have X-E1 and X-Pro1 with interchangeable lenses. Why not do X100 with non interchangeable, but zoom lens?
    What do you think? Is there someone like me who thinks that way or you all love the prime 23mm?
     
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  2. brian

    brian New to FujiXspot

    1
    Feb 8, 2013
    Personally, the prime 23mm is one of the big reason I bought the x100. If it had a zoom, I would not have bought it.
     
  3. Biro

    Biro Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    495
    Feb 1, 2013
    Jersey Shore
    Steve
    That fixed-focal length lens is tuned to each indivdual camera after it is installed at the factory. That goes a long way toward providing the kind of image quality that the X100 offers. If Fuji had a 24-90mm zoom that would be pretty cool. But I think a lot of the appeal would be lost - at least with people who love the X100 now.
     
  4. garylh

    garylh FujiXspot Regular

    71
    Feb 7, 2013
    The xe1 is really pretty close to x100 in size. The kit zoom might loose a little length if it was dedicated as a fixed, but at the end of the day, imho it makes no sense to Fuji from a profit and marketing perspective. It would put an in between camera in the mix, that could draw sales away from x20 or xe1.. Right now they have a very distinct lineup unlike the Sony Nex series which is pushing a new body out in less then a year since the line was started.. There is term that we use in my profession when we feel the marketing/plm team have not done their homework --> spitball, tons of variations on different products and features to c what sticks to the wall whichever wastes engineering resources on non-profitable features or products. I feel that this is Sony. Fuji seems to have thought thru the process and have remained true to their initial marketing goal albeit w/ some hiccups like the xs1 or maybe the xf1, but they tend to do their homework in terms of customer feedback. As a day one Fuji user of x100 and xp1, I realized a long time ago that these cameras are not for everyone.

    Just MHO.
    Gary
     
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  5. dixeyk

    dixeyk Guest

    If they offered the equivalent sensor/capabilities to the X100s but with a zoom lens like the X10/X20 I would be very interested in that.
     
  6. demiro

    demiro FujiXspot Regular

    92
    Jan 31, 2013
    PA-USA
    Dean
    I'd love a 24-90/2.8 version of the X100. But I do wonder about this point Biro makes:

    At the end of the day what would the expectations be of an X100 zoom vs the X-E1 + 18-55? You can make the X100 a bit smaller I assume; what else?
     
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  7. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs FujiXspot Veteran

    485
    Feb 1, 2013
    Near Philadephila
    An X100 with a zoom lens of any range would either be a good deal larger, have a good deal slower lens, and/or be wickedly expensive. And it would lose the simplicity of controls that the X100 has. I think the X20 is as close as we're gong to get. It's not really that much smaller than the X100 already, has a pretty darn fast lens, a reasonable zoom range, and as nice a set of controls as you could hope for with a zoom. The tradeoff is that the sensor is a good deal smaller. The only camera that does pretty much what you're asking for with a sensor almost the size of the X100's is the Canon G1X. It's got pretty stunning image quality and I think a similar zoom range as the X20, but its got a pretty slow lens. Starts at f2.8 at the wide end and close down pretty rapidly from there. And its a bit larger than the X100 too, I think, although I haven't handled one so I could be wrong.

    The bottom line is the more you aska single camera/lens combination to do, the less well it will do at least some parts of it. The X100 only sets out to do one thing and that's a big part of why it does it brilliantly.

    -Ray
     
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  8. Nic

    Nic FujiXspot Regular

    118
    Feb 5, 2013
    Brisbane, Australia
    Size comparison: G1X and X100

    http://camerasize.com/compare/#257,133

    I don't think that the OP is suggesting to replace the X100 with a zoom, but that a large sensor, fixed zoom lens camera would create a demand of it's own.
     
  9. moss1310

    moss1310 New to FujiXspot

    2
    Feb 8, 2013
    Portland, OR
    Like Nic says, the idea of a a large sensor, fixed zoom camera is very appealing. An X100 series, like the old GA645 series would be great. Personally, I want a grab and go camera to compliment my X-Pro 1, but the X100 is limited when I travel, and I don't know if I'd be satisfied with the x10/x20 sensor size.
     
  10. TheKeddi

    TheKeddi FujiXspot Regular

    44
    Feb 2, 2013
    The X100 is what it is and that's a fixed zoom, that it it at it's best and why most buy it, the X-E1 is good for zoom.
     
  11. Nic

    Nic FujiXspot Regular

    118
    Feb 5, 2013
    Brisbane, Australia
    While I like the idea of this, I do wonder how good value the final product would be. Let's say you took the existing X100, added the current 16MP sensor, and replaced the 23mm lens with a compact 28-100(ish) f3.5-5.6(ish) collapsible zoom lens. Bang, there's you camera! However, you end up with something barely different to the Canon G1X but potentially much more expensive if the price of the upcoming X100s is a guide. The main differences would be a better viewfinder and likely old school styling of the Fuji versus the very useful flip-out screen of the Canon. To make the camera more competitive Fuji would have to either sharpen their pricing pencils significantly or come up with a faster lens without making the camera too enormous.
     
  12. demiro

    demiro FujiXspot Regular

    92
    Jan 31, 2013
    PA-USA
    Dean
    To your point Nic, a more stylish G1X with a fancy VF is not the answer (for me, at least). Ray mentioned that an X100 zoom version would have to be either bigger, slower or more expensive. I'm not sure if that is even true. Can dollars defeat physics and allow for a fast zoom? I'd pay a bunch for a 24-90/2.8 APS-C sensor X100-ish camera.

    Without a pretty fast lens the whole proposition seems to fall apart. The G1X is lauded for it's IQ, but I recall Amin's review and comparison to the X10. I think one of his conclusions was that it's basically a wash when you consider smaller sensor + faster lens vs larger sensor + slower lens.

    What are the options? Is some sort of tech breakthrough possible that would change this paradigm? Hello Sony -- are you listening? Can the sensor size in the X10 be bumped up incrementally while keeping the current lens and not letting the whole package get too big? That seems like a reasonable expectation. Maybe the 1" sensor size that we are seeing more of will be in a future X camera.
     
  13. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    788
    Jan 31, 2013
    Boston, MA (USA)
    I generally don't like collapsible lenses, but I do like the X10 implementation where you turn the mechanically-linked zoom ring to extend the lens and turn on the camera. A similar design for a collapsible zoom version of the X100 or a collapsible zoom option for X-Pro/X-E would be great. Just make sure to keep aperture control on the lens :wink_old:.
     
  14. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs FujiXspot Veteran

    485
    Feb 1, 2013
    Near Philadephila
    I agree its MOSTLY bigger or slower. I tossed "or more expensive" in there figuring they might be able to pull something out of the hat if they throw enough money at it, sort of like Sony with the RX100. Its slower than you'd hope but to shoehorn that much zoom at even the apertures it achieved (f1.8 isn't bad at the wide end) with a pretty large sensor in SUCH a ridiculously small camera I think took some resources and innovation. A lot of it is software correction, for sure, but maybe a pretty extreme form of it that couldn't have come cheap...

    I think when you see the quality of the RX100's sensor, though, and assume it still has some room for improvement, you've gotta figure that thing is gonna spawn a whole bunch of compact cameras. I've sort of thought that a sensor of that size could be put into an X10/20 type body but maybe expanded to about the size of the X100 and maintain a lot of usability (where the RX100 fell down in my opinion) AND a similarly fast lens to what the X10/20 already has. I'd be all over that camera, or Panasonic's version of it if they just made the LX7 bigger and built around that sensor. And maybe done up X-Trans style, you could squeeze even more performance out of that sensor, which is already pretty amazingly great. At that point, all you're giving up is narrow depth of field, but you might even have a bit of that at the long end if you can keep the aperture fast enough. But we can't have quite EVERYTHING in one camera, now can we? I could see some future version of an X20 or LX7 built around a 1" sensor in a body about the size of an X100 becoming my primary camera if they get the pieces right. I'd still have other stuff for ultra wide or telephoto or more extreme low light, but I could see doing about 80-90% of my shooting with a camera like that. I just don't see it happening in a form I'd like with an APS sensor, or even m43...

    -Ray
     
  15. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    788
    Jan 31, 2013
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Ray, I look at the X-E1 and 18-55 and wonder how big it would be with a collapsible lens design with tons of software correction for barrel and relatively poor edge/corner performance. I think we'd be getting down to G1X size (the G1X has a stop slower lens but we'd be trading lens performance at the edges for speed). Would people like such a camera? I don't know. I think I'd rather have an LX7 or X10 with good lens performance across the frame than something stuffed with a big sensor and a lens that is only sharp in the middle, but I can see the latter being preferable to some folks.
     
  16. carlb

    carlb FujiXspot Veteran

    267
    Feb 6, 2013
    twin cities, minnesota
    Carl
    OK, then a fixed-lens slim-line X-E1, with zoom lens folding mostly into the body. With the new split-image manual focusing aid. Call it the "X120" or such.

    I would have to buy that, period. :biggrin_old:

    Hmmm, the bigger full-frame would be the "X135," harkening back to 135 film.
     
  17. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs FujiXspot Veteran

    485
    Feb 1, 2013
    Near Philadephila
    I agree Amin - you know how much I love the LX7 even with its limited sensor. It's fast lens still allows for pretty decent low light performance, but not as good as a better sensor would offer. So to me the ideal sounding compromise might be the 1" sensor in a body of whatever size was needed to get fast glass with a scent range of something like the X10 / RX100 (28-112) or, preferably to me, the LX7 (24-90). I'm guessing that could be done in a body roughly the size of the X100 with a collapsible fast lens without needing excessive software correction. To get all of that into something the size of the RX100 obviously required a pretty slow lens and tons of software correction. In something the size of the X10, it might need a slower lens or a lot of correction. If they went as large as the X100, maybe they could still do a fast lens with little correction... That would be an ideal to me - not sure what the market would be for such a beast though.

    -Ray
     
  18. Nic

    Nic FujiXspot Regular

    118
    Feb 5, 2013
    Brisbane, Australia
    I feel that the most important thing is to maintain lens quality, even at the expense of lens speed. That is key to the concept of a camera like the G1X. A soft, fast lens is, at the end of the day, a soft lens. Also, putting a fast lens on a smaller sensor looks impressive on paper but only really achieves parity when an equivalent larger sensor, slower lens camera needs to increase ISO values earlier as light levels decrease. The idea of a fixed-lens zoom only really interests me with a larger sensor size, mainly because I would expect it to go toe-to-toe with a physically larger, zoom-equipped interchangeable lens camera.